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May 4, 2013

The Need For Serious Criticism

Filed Under Creating Comics, Filipino Artists, Philippine Comics | 104 Comments

Comic book creators seem to be driven paranoid by the thought that there are people “out there” that are saying bad things about independent comics. I’ve actually been thinking about this for a long time, and talking with a few friends in the industry, about the need for serious, intelligent and proper criticism of the comic books that we do.

And I don’t mean those faceless and nameless so called “critics” out there who refuse to take responsibility for what they say. We need people who will stand by their criticism, the way we creators stand by our works. We stick our necks out every time we release a new comic book. We similarly need people with guts who will stick their necks out and be hated (but thanked and appreciated) all for the cause of better Philippine comics.

We need this kind of criticism because it is through this experience we can improve our work. I have never been shy in my opinion that all of us doing comics locally still need to improve our creations, and yes, that includes myself. Every year I see a new crop of comic books and I have to be honest and say that all in all, WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS!

I see a lot of well meaning indie comic books whose standards are far below what I would consider professional. I see artwork that have never been informed by proper human anatomy. I see layouts that are confusing, and backgrounds that defy the laws of perspective… if there are any backgrounds at all. The placement of words and balloons defeat the proper flow of the page, and I read stories that simply do not thrill me. I tried my best to give attention to those titles that I feel have some quality to them, and say nothing about those comics I feel simply don’t live up to what I consider “good comics”.

Many indie creators continue merrily along, propped up by praises from friends and family, and so continue to create the same level of work. In this environment, little improvement can be possible.

I don’t want to single out anybody. Instead, this is directed at everybody, including myself. There is always room for improvement. Work on your anatomy. Work on your perspective. Work on your storytelling. Think hard about how panels interact with each other, and how your story flows from one panel to another. Work on your lettering. Lettering is NOT an afterthought but part of the artwork of an entire page. If you are a new artist, don’t depend too much on the computer right away. Work on your grammar and spelling.

If you think your work is good enough, it isn’t. It never is.

Are you game? Let’s see what you got come Summer Komikon!

Comments

104 Responses to “The Need For Serious Criticism”

rh quilantang on April 5th, 2010 5:18 pm

i agree with you, sir. criticisms are part of an artist’s development. i hope you find time to drop by my table and critique on my indie comic, sir. mabuhay ka!
tonstee on April 5th, 2010 6:02 pm

EDIT:

gerry!, this is tonstee of Comic Kolektor Phils :) can i post this in the forums?
Gerry Alanguilan on April 5th, 2010 6:06 pm

Sure Tonstee….!
Ed on April 5th, 2010 7:12 pm

You are definitely right on the last part. When you think your work is good, it’s not over. Battle still going, even if you ran out of pencil and ink.

Releasing a full story with dialogues and dynamic paneling is a threat to me. I am not a writer, I try hard to tell a story with my drawings, that’s why I rarely make my own comics. It is scary for me to publish my own, so I get all the help I need from those who are willing to. Kaya minsan, ART BOOK na lang release ko. At least isa lang target ko for the books: art book collectors. :P
Joel Chua on April 5th, 2010 10:31 pm

With so many titles competing for the wallet on a one-day event such as the Komikon, being able to market & pimp one’s comic (and associated items) is a skill that independent artists can also improve at.
Jun Pamintuan on April 6th, 2010 12:28 am

A few flaws that I often see in pinoy comics are grammatical errors and anatomical impossibilities in drawings. I am fine with such flaws in drawings since I am not good at art myself, but yep, artists should not be content with those, they need to aim high and improve their artwork. I do not mind the looks of the art as well so long as the message and scene is very well interpreted by means of the artwork, I mean..there are people who draw good, there are people who suck at drawing, either way, conveying the scene or message well by means of artwork would do great for the comic. But what really really turns me off often are the grammatical errors. Really, I mean..nobody is perfect but come on. The comics the artists produce would be seen nationwide, if not worldwide. It will be seen by a lot of people. Most of us here in the Philippines use Tagalog. If we are to use English for our comics so we can distribute it to other countries, then we should get our grammars right. The way I see it as a reader, it is always better to see a well written comic in Tagalog than a comic written in English with lots of grammatical flaws. Turn-offs are bad. I do mean really bad. If an artist uses English, then get it done right. I will definitely open this up to some artists when we get to meet up again.
Cev Ruiz on April 6th, 2010 1:30 am

Just throwing my two cents in. I really see the value on what you’re trying to say in this post and perhaps the difficulty of someone or some group to stand up as a “professional” critic of komiks is that 1. most komiks are self-published / independently published and 2. it’s just not in our genetics to be able to take criticism fairly–it always ends up that the critic is accused of “namemersonal”. Since most komiks are self-published/independently published it becomes a labor of love more than anything else lending to its status as more amateurish. Mahirap i-critic ang isang labor of love dahil 1. kapag may sinabing di kanais-nais, madaling magdahilan ung gumawa kesyo “intended” yung mistakes or ginamit niya ang kanyang “artistic liberty” sa mga pinupuna…at 2. pumapasok ang personalan dahil nga “labor of love” from blood sweat and tears tapos yuyurak-yurakan lang?

But like you mentioned, we really need to evolve and sometimes in order to evolve there’s a necessary trigger. Maybe to continually push the improvement of komiks, someone or a group needs to really go out there and separate poor quality komiks from above average quality komiks. Ang nangyayari tuloy, basta may mag labas ng komiks applaud ang lahat at puro thumbs up without a real intelligent inspection of the work.

And the question is whether someone can pick up that responsibility not to mention survive the ire of komiks creators that he/she will inevitably lambaste…
Pinoy Comics USA on April 6th, 2010 7:06 am

A few flaws that I often see in pinoy comics are grammatical errors and anatomical impossibilities in drawings.

But Jun, most comic drawings are anatomical impossibilities. That’s why they’re comics. Take Manga and their big eyes, that’s just anatomically impossible, right? It’s comics.
Jun Pamintuan on April 6th, 2010 9:44 am

Ah no, Thanks a lot for that correction! I was wrong with conveying my message and my choice of words, what I mean by anatomical impossibilities are not the ones like huge noses, small feet, ridiculously large muscles, large teary eyes, etc. because yeah, they’re supposed to be like that. What I should have said was “consistency” in drawing. By anatomical flaws for comics, I meant the ones like: a comic character having two left hands when they shouldn’t have (although rare, this happens, even Jack Kirby made these mistakes early on with Fantastic Four), a comic character wherein his nose is flat in one issue but on the next issue it is rather pointy, being too beefy and muscular in one issue but on the next he would look plain when it is not in the nature of the character (I’m not talking about Hulk but a normal character with inconsistency on what normally his body should look like), making a character that’s supposed to have a normal body structure but fingers, hands, etc seem to be too small or too large for a normal body size when it shouldn’t be, and so on. I should have not used anatomical impossibilities there (sorry, wrong choice of words) but instead I should have said artists should have “consistency” in drawing a character or characters they created. Different artists would mean different interpretations but the basic structure of a character should be there. Hulk can be drawn by many different artists with different styles but Hulk will always look like Hulk because of the consistency and thought of how he should look like that the artists take into consideration. I mean, if someone is to make a normal looking character, it should look normal (anatomically normal looking) and the drawings should be consistent. Again, thank you for that correction. ^_^
Jun Pamintuan on April 6th, 2010 10:05 am

@ Cev,
Yes, I agree with those. It is rather scary to approach an artist and criticize his/her work due to the fact that it is in the nature and mentality of the Filipinos that when you criticize someone’s work, it means you are attacking their work or you do not like their work and you are just taking them down which brands you as evil, which is of course a wrong way of thinking. Critics are there to point out flaws in someone’s work so there can be room for improvement. Sadly, that’s not how most Filipinos think when faced with criticism. They just think of criticism as a means of attack by a person who hates them or their work which is of course I think is one reason why most people (specially the normal people, masses, and readers) do not want to criticize our local artists’ works. It is rather sad to be hated by an artist or to be avoided by an artist specially if you are a fan simply because you pointed out a flaw in his/her work. This fact almost always happen to be in the heads of Filipinos. That criticizing is not a good thing. If Filipinos accept that criticizing is not bad and is actually a good thing for the improvement of their works, then it will be great.
Francis Lim on April 6th, 2010 10:18 am

totally agree with all the opinions expressed…perhaps an informal editorial board could be formed online…..wherein amateur/indie artists could have their art critiqued….before any hard-earned cash is shelled out to print them out….. just a thought……
Gilbert Monsanto on April 6th, 2010 12:55 pm

Wala kasing editors ang karamihan sa self-published books. But I think a lot of writers are willing to help out, so I guess maganda may nakakakita na ng komiks bago pa lumabas sa imprenta. Just one thing na kailangan nila isipin, ang editing ay iba sa rewrite. Saka kung tutulong sa mga indie titles, hanapin lang as much as possible ang technical side para di naman maapakan ang pride nila :)

There is a good way to critic a work, tell them all the good points muna, then the failed attempts then lastly don’t forget to encourage them. Nurture them and give them unsolicited hard love. Di mo naman yan friends eh, di ka pa licensed to give hard love hehe. Makikita nila ang respect sa iyo kung sincere ka, nakikita rin kung namemersonal ka na.
Robby Villabona on April 6th, 2010 12:57 pm

I think if an artist is seriously looking to improve, then he should go out and seek that criticism privately from those willing to help. It’s up to him to find a willing mentor (or TOR-mentor?) to help him grow in writing and drawing. It’s important that this mentor be a real teacher, rather than just a cheerleader. The challenge is recognizing who is a worthy coach, and if he will give you his time and effort.

The problem with public critiques, especially in a culture like ours, is it’s generally counter-productive. Artists tend to become defensive and closed-minded when his work is publicly critiqued, kahit tama naman yung sinasabi. And so there’s little incentive for a good and serious critic to write comics reviews. Wala na nga siyang kikitain sa pagsulat niya, magagalit pa yung mga komikero sa kanya. What benefit is there in that?
Gilbert Monsanto on April 6th, 2010 1:18 pm

Instead of giving crits, siguro teach them to do stuffs. That way di mo lang sinabihan, tinuruan mo. Yung iba kasi pag magcrit akala mo kaya niya, pero pag nakita sa work.. wenk wenk wenk.

Teaching and nurturing these kids ang tamang daan at hindi crits lang ng crits.

Yung iba kasi sasabihin lang pangt ito pangit yan. ag tinanong naman kung ano dapat niyang gawin, ang sagot ng crit ay…. Ikaw na bahala dun. KAPAL MUKS talaga!
Jon Zamar on April 6th, 2010 2:01 pm

As much as I would like a long post like the previous people who left comments, I don’t have one. I just simply want to say that I agree, I would greatly benefit to have someone say what I can improve on. I already have a general idea on the areas of comicbook production I’m weak at and I try to absorb pointers from anyone who would lend time to help me out. I try to improve but still I see so many flaws in what I do. It would be great if someone would say something about my work.
Pinoy Comics USA on April 6th, 2010 3:07 pm

Actually, right here on this site you’ll find artists sharing there expertise on comics illustration.
Edgar Tadeo has a step-by-step How I Draw section in his blog:

http://www.edgartadeo.com/howidraw/howidraw02-01.html

And an excellent place to learn everything about comics illustration is Floro Dery’s Comics Illustration right here:

http://comicsillustration.blogspot.com/

Or they’re also to the left of this site in Gerry’s Blog Roll
Gerry Alanguilan on April 6th, 2010 3:28 pm

True “criticism” goes beyond just saying bad things. Specifically defined, CRITICISM is the the art of judging skillfully of the merits or beauties, defects or faults of a literary or scientific performance, or of a production of art. It’s truly a deep and impartial analysis on why a specific piece of art works or not and the reasons for it.
Jose Mari Lee on April 6th, 2010 4:27 pm

Guys:

In in a nut shell, when one wishes to to do a critique of an artist’s work, just remember Sergio Leone’s Classic Spaghetti Western: THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY.

These things should be mentioned if they are all present in a comic book.

However…

Some comic books possess the GOOD only.
Other comic books possess the BAD only.
While many comic books possess the UGLY only.

And yet, many possess all three as well.

And to be really fair and objective, always look for these three kinds of Spaghetti. If you are equipped with enough knowledge of the subject being critiqued, then go ahead and share your view.

Though in the old komiks industry, only PUTANESCA was the order of the day. Putanesca was invented by Italian whores because it is the quickest kind of spaghetti to cook – while waiting for their clients.

And drawing 20 pages of comics a day is like cooking Putanesca. Quick and dirty, yet, more money in return.
Cev Ruiz on April 6th, 2010 4:29 pm

Another two cents, (four cents na un…) I just want to comment on what Gilbert Monsanto said that instead of giving criticisms you should teach them to do things.

I don’t think you need to be a good writer / good artist in order to give constructive criticism on any work especially komiks. Whether its the story or artwork, there’s always a certain degree of structure and form that would be noticeably deficient kung mali talaga ang pagkakagawa o kulang sa skill ang gumagawa.

Actually I think the best critics are those not in the industry at all but have a basic working knowledge of the industry. Look at food critics, movie critics, and book critics. They’re not chefs, directors, or writers themselves but they still know what they’re talking about and enjoy a position wherein they can say what they believe is good and bad about a dish, film, or book.

Parang si Simon sa American Idol, hindi naman niya tinuturuan ung mga contestant kumanta sinasabi lang niya kung ano nagustuhan niya at hindi. Ganun din ata dapat sa komiks.
Auggie on April 6th, 2010 8:42 pm

Not necessarily Cev. To be a competent critic, you gotta have MORE THAN A WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF THE INDUSTRY. More Bonus points if you have a background on the Humanities, Literature,Liberal Arts, Fine Arts, Architecture the creative arts…dapat alam mo ang sinasabi mo to be credible.
Ang isa pang OPTION , actually kung walang matitinong critics around, eh iyung tinatawag sa scientific community na PEER REVIEW. Ang ibig sabihin: yung mga tinitingala ng mga pangalan sa KOMIKDOM, at meron ng certain degree of credibility & GRAVITAS, eh pwede ng magkumpol- kumpol at bigyan ng review ang gawa ng kapuwa nila KOMIKERO. Ang tanong eh, mi oras ba ang mga sage na ito para magreview sa mga up &coming Komikeros? pro bono ba o may honorarium? yun ang mga ilang issues na dapat plantsahin pa para magkaroon tayo ng sariling QUALITY CONTROL sa industriya….

JM, yung tungkol naman sa PUTANESCA, umorder na ako niyan sa SBARRO’s,what can I say? It ain’t bad, not bad all…Masarap!
Gilbert Monsanto on April 6th, 2010 9:41 pm

Kung papakita naman ang work sa iba for editing bago ito ipa print. Kailangan lang na:
1.) sasabihin lang ang pointers na napansin nila. walang rewrite, kasi ang creator pa rin dapat ang boss. We can only tell them what we think in a constructive way. In the end sila pa rin ang magdedecide kung itutuloy nila, aayusin o kung ano pa, kasi pera naman nila yan.

2.) Kung protected na ang ipapakita nila, mas mainam. This will make sure na walang makokopya ang mga creatives din na titingin. Not saying na gagawin yun pero, walang masama kung magiingat di ba?

3.) Kailangan sila ang magrequest na tignan mo ito. kung wala nito, mas mainam na di makialam. Sa akin yun ang rule ko eh, kung gusto niya ipakita ok, pero never ako magsasalita kung ayaw nila. Kasi nirerespeto ko sila.

Parang ganun lang naiisip ko.
Carver on April 6th, 2010 9:53 pm

Great post! Actually, I’ve been tempted sooooo many times to review a few local comics in my blog, pero hindi ko sure how open people are to unsolicited criticism. Plus, I still don’t have the vocabulary needed to dish out a proper critique.

There have been a few who have privately asked me to comment on their comics, and I would focus more on the storytelling, pacing, and clarity aspects, not so much on the anatomy or perspective.
Eman Gacosta on April 6th, 2010 10:05 pm

Hello Sir,

I’m a regular visitor here and I’ve never posted a comment, that is, until now. I must say I agree with you. Sa sinulat nyo sa 4th paragraph, ang pumasok agad sa isip ko ay yung Neo Comics dati, no offense sa sinumang connected doon. Pasintabi po. Parang ang nangyari, basta makapaglabas na lang ng issue, sige lang. Nakakapanghinayang kasi parang gusto mo na lang suportahan i.e. bumili dahil nakita mo yung effort ng staff pero at the end of the day, ‘efforts’ (and fighting spirit) are not enough.
Gerry Alanguilan on April 7th, 2010 8:31 am

Guys… my notice of “No Anonymous Comments” is not just for show. It’s very seriously implemented. So “MK”, if you’re reading this, send me your real name at my email at gerrryalanguilan at yahoo.com and I’ll add it to your post and approve it. Sayang. Mukhang well thought out pa naman. I need to verify who you are lalo na tumatalbog ang mga emails ko sa iyo.
Auggie on April 7th, 2010 9:24 am

Gerry,

Bakit takot na takot itong mahilig magpadala ng mga Anonymous comments, mag -identify ng sarili nila? ano ba ang dapat ikatakot? gugulpihin ba sila kung sakali?
Gerry Alanguilan on April 7th, 2010 9:36 am

Ito namang si MK ay mukhang sensible naman ang sinasabi, unlike yung mga iba. Tulad ng sabi ko noon, di ko maaaprove ang message, kahit maganda ang sinasabi, basta anonymous. Sana naman seryosohin ang mga notice ko dito.
Karl L. on April 7th, 2010 1:30 pm

I would suggest something like a REVIEW PANEL for published works.

Something like THURSDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK from the old Wizard Magazine Website where staff writers review and give their critiques on some of the notable (or much-hyped) Wednesday US comics releases. Although if I remember correctly, most of their comments came from a fanboy perspective, ooh-ing and aah-ing at the pretty art or the gosh-darn “moments” and “twists” in a comic.

The REVIEW PANEL would consist of at least three (3) people with maybe an occasional 4th person brought in as a ‘guest reviewer’ from time to time. The qualifications of the reviewers should include either (1) a deep understanding of sequential art (someone who has learned the lessons taught by Will Eisner or Scott McCloud or…), (2) have a lengthy or significant experience working in Philippine comics and/or Foreign comics; or (3) people who have studied art and illustration with degrees in either Fine Arts, Graphic Design, Architecture etc.

Also, locally published professional writers should also be brought in (or at least consulted) in order to give credible critiques on story elements i.e. plot (or the lack of…), story complexity, use of symbolism, spotting plot holes etc.

The art aspects to be critiqued are what Gerry has already listed in his article.

A Tough Love/ “Okrayan” approach would involve pointing out glaring mistakes (because everyone makes mistakes once in a while) such as wonky and impossible anatomy, spelling and grammar, continuity problems (i.e. on one panel the guy looks at the time on his wrist watch, on another panel he doesn’t have it but then it reappears towards the end when he has to look at the time again), consistency (i.e. the character’s height in relation to other characters), non-use of references (for stuff like guns, machines) etc.

The Review Articles could be hosted on somebody’s website or have its own website. The review article would take the form of a Q&A discussion with one of the reviewers serving also as moderator/facilitator. I imagine it would go something like this:

This week we’re reviewing: “Adventures in Pants Repair and Altering”

[Reviewer 3]: So guys, do you think the panels are cramped with insignificant stuff?
Reviewer 1: Oh, don’t even get me started on this… blah blah blah.
Reviewer 2: There’s definitely room for improvement… blah blah blah.

Reviewer 3: Did you get confused with the word balloon placements? Did the story make sense? Was the ending satisfying? Or does it leave you wanting? What aspects could the creator improve on?

The ADVANTAGE of having three people instead of one person chime in their opinions is, if ever one reviewer provides an honest but somewhat scathing statement (ala Simon Cowell) about an aspect of the work, the other reviewers could tone down the impact of that comment, regulating it, putting it in much kinder words IF the comment does indeed warrant toning down.

Should the reviewers be responsible for the creator’s feelings? If they are honest and true, I don’t think so. I think the creator should have the maturity and self-respect to take the criticism like a man (or a woman) and focus on improving his/her technique. A judgement on a piece of work is not a judgement on you as a person. Blaming and whining are just unprofessional and immature.

Just my ten centavos.

Karl L.
Bay, Laguna
Ida on April 7th, 2010 2:23 pm

Thank you for mentioning that correct grammar is part of good comics making. :)
Minsan masyadong focus sa art ‘yung mga tao, completely neglected ‘yung story and dialogue. Hindi nila alam may mga fans na hindi masyadong particular sa art, at mas-interested sa magandang story at witty dialogue na syempre, dapat maayos ang grammar.
Gerry Alanguilan on April 7th, 2010 3:38 pm

This is for all anonymous. Sorry, but initials are NOT enough. I’m posting this here because once again my emails to you are bouncing back.

Pasensya na, but I don’t believe in “Ang mahalaga ay ang mensahe. Don’t shoot the messenger, ika nga.”

How can I believe what a person is saying if the person has a bag over his head when he talks to me? How can he ever be credible when he doesn’t even respect me enough as a human being to tell me what his real name is, when MY real name is out there for all to see? How is that fair?

I absolutely refuse to accept what anyone is saying as long they refuse to accept responsibility for their words. The message is useless if I cannot believe the messenger. This is all about accountability. We all have to be held accountable for what we say.

If you will not take me seriously, I cannot return the favor.

**************

I know everyone who posts on the board. I know them personally, or they provide links to their sites which verify who they really are. I have already extended you more courtesy than normal, as I usually delete anonymous comments right away. Just let me know who you are, and I will erase all other comments that refer to your anonymity (including this message) so we can continue with the true topic of this post.

This is my last word on this. If you still prefer to continue being anonymous, I will no longer read anything you have to say, and I will delete all your comments, and I will say nothing more in reference to this.
AJ Bernardo on April 7th, 2010 9:13 pm

@Gilbert: Issues like these makes you appreciate the role of a good editor. Then again one of the perks of being an indie is the freedom from the mercy of editors. So it’s definitely a double edged sword.

@Cev: I believe it was Jose Rizal who pointed out that you don’t need to be a chef in order to appreciate good food. With this we can probably establish the distinction between appreciation and critique.

The most interesting aspect of the role of a critic is to dish out the hate and receive it return. But in the everybody wins.
AJ Bernardo on April 7th, 2010 9:15 pm

Leche nagkamali pa sa huling statement na pinakaimportante
*But in the END, everybody wins.
Michael on April 8th, 2010 6:33 am

I’m a vicious critic myself of comic books and fiction for that matter…even if my own drawing skills are just at the “coloring book-manga level” and I’m still polishing my craft.

I’ve commented on another blog how this group of self-publishers masquerade as “indie” creators when what they put out is actually MAINSTREAM format, spandex-superheroes with flag marked outfits, and the stories they tell are old re-reuns of what you’ve read before about good vs evil.

As for drawing skills…Whilce once said that as long as you got structure in your drawing it will work. Everything else can be attributed to style.
I live by this creed and am happy that it actually works.

For the best feedback about your own creations, all you need to do is to compare your work with the best in the industry and then compare it with the worst in the industry…Everyone else may think that Rob Liefeld is bad but what this guy has done for comics has eclipsed even the best hotshots of his time and even hotshots of the current era…I love Liefeld!

Is your work at the Bayan Knights level?…Are you happy with just muscular flag-costumed hunks beating up vanilla villains?

Are your character designs rip-offs of Street Fighter? Wahahahaha!

Or do you take the time to read and explore all the possible formats for both fiction and comics then come up with your own set of unique stories and characters?

In the end, kahit sablay sa simula yung creative work mo…practice lang lagi sa pagsulat at pag drawing hanggang ma-achieve mo yung level na gusto mo between the best in the industry and the worst in the industry…

The best advice for writers is to read everything you can get your hands on in genre fiction and build on those reading experiences to enhance your craft.
Jonathan on April 8th, 2010 7:31 am

There are always room for improvement.
Borgy on April 8th, 2010 8:39 am

I agree that we need more objective criticism surrounding our work as comics creators. The problem with our culture and uprbringing is that most of us were raised in the belief that if someone says something bad about you or your work then either a) you must really be terrible or b) the person critisizing you is just jealous. Then it becomes a question whether one wallows in self-pity or holds a grudge in which neither case is constructive nor productive.

The trick is determining who exactly has the heart and passion for being a critic and has the clout so that his/her ability and objectivity would be unquestioned… and has the balls to stick with it. It’s like being a QA in the call center industry; nobody likes what you do, some even hate you but your existence is a necessity if industry is to thrive.
Joel Chua on April 8th, 2010 2:07 pm

If a 7-year old girl sold her comic at the Komikon, would you give her serious criticism?
Wilson Dela Fuente on April 9th, 2010 1:57 pm

Hi Gerry and everyone (nawala ba yung forum?)

I agree with all that has been said about the need for serious criticism locally.

I’m an aspiring artist hopefully may sense constribution ko kahit hindi pako pro :)

********************

Criticism defers in degrees to person to person and mahirap talaga mahuli yung right criticism that works for them if you don’t know them that well.

When I was twelve a teacher of mine taught (daw) by Whilce Portacio to gauge our work by the artists we idolize. I think he was teaching us to always be aware how much improvement we need. To always compare ourselves with the international competition.

Most artists hate being compared but being compared quality wise to famous works by international publishers /creators like Marvel and DC isn’t a bad thing. Its a wakeup call to an artist/creator
on what quality people/publishers are looking. Yun na yung standard na na embed na sa tao before and the masses taste won’t favor/settle for less. If your aiming to get paid work artists should keep this in mind.

In the field of comics, if we’ve seen enough and read enough we develop a “gut” feeling of “uy bibilin ko ito.” We know if something is wrong kahit anung art style man yun. A sense of “I see value in this product to appreciate it.” This I think counts to justify that we can criticize.

The major problem I think is mahirap maghanap ng forum to get these serious criticism. Lahat parang Deviantart stuffing others with praises and wanting fans.

I suggest opening a forum where we’re critics are not afraid to dish out real constructive comments. Parang “Ego” out of the door place na walang personalan.

Mag post lang yung artists and to mention he’s looking for serious criticism and that he will not take anything personally. Parang Waiver baga. Moderators lang to control facilitate conduct.
adam david! on April 9th, 2010 9:24 pm

ser ger talaga, parang me remote access sa notebooks ko.

this april, maguumpisa ako ng weekly reviews ng komix sa POC. nag-umpisa nung december 2009 sa EL INDIO, tas di naipagpatuloy dahil nagkaisyu-isyu sa website na ginagawan ng review (ang isusunod ko dapat dun ay BOLD STARS). pero oks na ulit kaya uumpisahan ko na sa buwan na ito!

at kasabay rin ng mga review ay ilang komentaryo tungkol sa komix. ayun po! sori kung parang naghardsell ako bigla!
Whilce Portacio on April 10th, 2010 2:46 pm

Regardless of whether a critic is a pro or just a fan, all critique must be based upon only one concept. “Is the artist communicating his ideas in a clear, concise way?”

All art comes from an artist thinking up a concept/story/idea and then trying to relate that to an audience visually. If the intended audience cannot understand what the artist intends, then the artist has failed.

For the artist the only way to improve is to constantly bare your soul and show your work to people all around you and keep in mind whether they understand what you are trying to do. If they can’t understand your work , then ask them what they do see. Then based upon what they see then you can figure out what you are doing wrong in communicating to your audience. Once you are consistently able to communicate clearly to your audience then it is only a matter of style and final presentation.

For the audience/critic you must first figure out what the artist is intending and then judge whether the artist accomplishes his goal. Then you supply criticism based upon how clearly the artist communicated his ideas.

If you cannot do this then you cannot critique someone else’s work. At that point you can only offer your opinion…it is not a critique.

An opinion is only your own personal feelings or likes, a critique is a structured, knowledgeable assessment of someone else’s work. Being that you are giving a critic of someone else’s work you must respect that artist by giving a fact-based critic.

There are literaly millions of Pinoy Professional Artist employed and sought after around the world, you too can be one of them…Whilce…
The Blurb » The Need for SERIOUS CRITICISM on April 11th, 2010 7:46 am

[...] You can read the full article here. [...]
Mel Casipit on April 12th, 2010 2:33 am

I don’t mind critics to my works as I long as I can see their point and the critic makes sense. For me it’s challenge to improve my work. For instance, my drawings and pin-up were criticized by David Campiti of glasshousegraphics. I know what he is talking about so I believe him, and in the future I pattern my works on things he pointed out.
Gerry Alanguilan on April 12th, 2010 11:55 am

Joel, only if she asks for it. But like all my critiques, I’m hard but I encourage and I’m never dismissive.
Gilbert Monsanto on April 13th, 2010 3:40 pm

I think may pinagkaibahan ang critic sa cheap shots. Yung tumitira ng cheap shots ay parang anay sa lipunan uunti-untiin ka hanggang sa masira ang pundasyon ng bahay, kaya kailangan lagyan ng gamot. Samantala ang critic ay yaung idinadagdag upang pagtibayin ang pundasyon ng bahay.
kathleen on April 14th, 2010 9:46 pm

Hindi lang comics ang may problema sa paghahanap ng credible, reliable at sensible criticism, dahil problema rin ito ng literatura ng bansa in general. I mean, kung ung mga prolific at serious novels natin na gawa ng mga professional writers natin namomoblema kung saan hahanap ng magagaling na kritiko, komiks pa kaya. At isa pa, kaunting-kaunti lang ang mga taong nagpapakadalubhasa sa pag-kritiko ng mga akda dito sa bansa, kaya pagdurusahan natin ang paghahanap ng mga taong willing ibigay ang talino at oras nila sa pag-aaral sa ating mga akda.
Flor on April 15th, 2010 11:44 am

Naghahanap kamo kayo ng kritiko sa komiks?

Ang tagal na ng blog ko na

SUPER KAPRE NG MGA KOMIKEROS

kung saan pinagsusundot ko ang mga PIGSA ng mga dibuho ng magagaling na mga dibuhista natin pero naduwag ang marami na pumasok duon. Hanapin ninyo ang link kung interesado kayo.

Ngayon kung gusto ng sinuman sa inyo na WARATIN ko ang dibuho niya ay sabihin lang niya sa akin at gagawin ko pa siyang

“isa sa mga HARI na NILURAY ang dibuho niya ni Kapre,” hhhhhhh.
Michael on April 16th, 2010 6:55 am

The best feedback system anyone doing comic books can rely on will be MARKET itself.

You can write the BEST stories, have the BEST artwork, and maybe even get the BEST reviews from your peers in the industry…

But if nobody buys your comic book…what then?

You may write a pastiche, draw horribly, get slagged by the critics, but if your comic book sells a gazillion copies and establishes a cult following, then should you really be concerned about critics?

Maybe the harshest critic of one’s own work should be the writer/artist himself.

Would you buy something you made yourself?

Are you satisfied with your current skillset?

Does the opinion of other people really matter if you already know what areas you need to improve on?

Because in the end you do the gig for your own enjoyment and own self-development and your reward comes when you come up with something you’ve never achieved before…something you can share with readers.

Affirmation from peers and fans are just secondary.
Auggie on April 16th, 2010 10:34 am

Michael, I am extremely interested in your work. I would like to see one. NO kidding!
Jose Mari Lee on April 16th, 2010 12:58 pm

Mikee:

I respect your opinion.

However, SMASH HIT does not translate as – EXCELLENT. Even in the movies, we get the likes of NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET series or that forever grinding FRIDAY THE 13TH series of nonsensical fare, yet check out the box office success and it’s mind-blogging.

And who can forget that hyped of the hyped(pest) atrocious THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT? Where are those guys who made it? Probably camping out near Lake Tahoe.

While its true that an artist is the best critic of his work, it does not necessarily true that the audience is the best critic just because they are the ones who will pay to see or to read the product.

In my honest opinion, the best critics are your peers, not your fans. Your colleague artists know exactly what is involved in the creation process. They are practitioners in the same field you’re in, therefore they are more knowledgeable.

Don’t bank on the fans or the audience. You’LL BE treading on dangerous water here, for you might end up doing MASSACRE FILMS.

Ah, well, you know what I mean.
;
Jose Mari Lee on April 16th, 2010 1:06 pm

Ooops. Mike, don’t critique my keyboarding. I’m not trying to confuse you by typing the wrong words, re:
“it does not necessarily TRUE (MEAN is what I meant) that the audience is the best critic”

If you disagree with my opinion, I would love to discuss this matter further with you. Who knows? You might even convince me to change my outlook.

Email me at: tauruswarrior@shaw.ca
and we’ll discuss this. Auggie might want to get involved as well, then all of us will be happy.
:)
Jose Mari Lee on April 16th, 2010 1:24 pm

Ay, Caramba, Mikee, more bloopers.

I meant MIND-BOGGLING, not MIND-BLOGGING. He-he.

And another OOOps. I meant treading IN dangerous water, not ON dangerous water (for how could that be?) Not unless if I were a green lizard who could run above a body of water. he-he. The “i” and the “o” are placed beside each other and I’m having this problem all the time. After 30 years of using the typewriter and now the keyboard, here I am still struggling with the so-called TULDOK system.

Arg! I need a critique from my colleague artists who are keyboard experts. The audience might tell me to: “GO TO HELL” if I ask them. Whereas, my colleagues, like you, would gladly give me tips on how to improve my keyboarding, and would just might tell me politely: “GO TO HADES” (this sounds nicer at least).

And no, I’m not mentally retarded; just an old space cadet.
:)
Michael on April 16th, 2010 3:00 pm

Auggie, dude you have nothing to fear from me or my craft.

I draw like a coloring book and in a stylized Manga style…and my scribing is in the outdated Chris Claremont school mixed with baroque China, Moorcock pulp and Gibson parsing.

My aesthetics and poetics are different from yours and your kindred obviously…

And I’m at that stage where I really like the way I draw and write—enough to be bold to publish my own comic book…coming out soon…just because I enjoy the creative process and I want to share my stories with kids who like Manga and Mecha.

I’m not the best at drawing Manga…I know my skillset still needs improvement and I constantly doodle and enjoy discovering how I find new ways to solve drawing and layout kinks.

I think kids who will read my work and my colleague Sho’s work will enjoy our stuff immensely because we are InfernoKrusher and Weird.

Just click on my name.

Or buy one of the two remaining copies of Arkhell/GK in Comic Odyssey.
Michael on April 16th, 2010 5:11 pm

JM Lee

Go back to the advice of Whilce.

If the market (readers/audience) responds to the ideas you are trying to communicate then one does the job really, really well.

I love Pulp and B-Movie Horror, dude. Excellent entertainment!

If you saw Freddy Krueger as a kid growing up, he was one of the best portrayals of chaotic evil ever…until they did pastiche (endless rehash) and the magic wore off a bit but still an excellent concept and character.

Legend (Ridley Scott) found cult following status eventually, even when critics panned it when the movie first came out and initial box-office results were tepid.

On my book, an artist satisfies himself first with his own set of aesthetics and poetics, then shares his creation with a particular group, an audience, a group of readers.

Peer group critique only works if you have the same set of aesthetics and poetics…which I think is the primary reason why I don’t see eye-to-eye with anyone who says making comics isn’t all FUN.

Yes, it isn’t easy, been through the grind too and even sacrificed quality just to make a deadline…

But learning as you go keeps one rabidly interested in the craft because if one ever gets it right…the satisfaction and payoff exceeds all the challenges you encounter along the way.

We’re talking about comics… and we don’t do comics to please some art critic…we do comics because mutants rock, mecha rocks harder, monsters are cool and villains are fun and nasty…these we communicate to an audience so that they can have as much fun with our visual stories as we have creating them…

That’s why comics will always be FUN on my book.
AJ Bernardo on April 16th, 2010 8:07 pm

@Mike, you realize box-office numbers are largely proportional to how much money producers dump in marketing, right?
Auggie on April 16th, 2010 9:56 pm

Mike,

Oh I see, You are a MANGA ARTIST. Unfortunately, I don’t like MANGA, never been and never will. I find them too CUTESY. Still, we live in a democracy and you are free to pursue whatever makes you happy. Go ahead and have fun…
Jose Mari Lee on April 17th, 2010 12:35 am

Mike:

I also like fun, that’s why I like comics. I am also one heck of a horror and B movie fan. And yes, there are very good B Movies that are worth seeing. CARNIVAL OF SOULS is one I could think of, and yes, George Romero’s NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD is still my number one fave.

Which means that there are fun comics and B-Movies that also raise the reader’s (and audience’s) consciousness, and at the same time take him to terra incognita.

A very good example I can think of in recent years is: THE BLACK HOLE by Charles Burns. It is a best seller AND an excellent work. This is the type of smash hit that is also excellent.

And going back to our discussion, if you are looking for excellence in your work, the fans will never deliver it to you, because they are the most fickle minded bunch, and they’re just there to have a good time. Fans are there to put you up on a pedestal, but they are also the ones who would chew you and spit you out once they’re no longer happy with what you’re doing.

What I’m trying to say is: don’t rely too much from your fans to bother to tell you how you can still improve your work. They’re not there to tell you that, and they’re not meant to be there to tell you that, in the first place.

But, I guess individual differences is still the rule of the game. And because you believe the way you do, then so be it. Good luck.

For me, however, colleagues are truly qualified to assess what’s good and what’s bad. It is the best way to go when asking for a feedback about my work. Why? Because they themselves became a practitioner from being a fan first. Thus, they are more well-equipped to critique a colleague’s work. It’s like the academy awards. Your peers are the one’s selecting the winners, not just every Tom, Dick and Harry hanging out on Hollywood Boulevard and Vine Street.
:)
Michael on April 17th, 2010 7:41 am

I don’t watch B-movies to have my consciousness raised…

I watch B-movies because I like to see cool monsters, spaceships, gorgeous wenches, and scary villains and Freddy Krueger, Jason and the Blair Witch are some of the creepiest ones I’ve ever seen so they’re cool on my book.

And your description of an artist is different from mine.

An artist is a fan first before he becomes a practitioner in the arts.

Not all artists, or writers for that matter have the same work methods and aesthetics or else they would all be drawing alike. Even Japanese manga and anime, even if they have a certain familiarity, all have their unique individual stylistic nuances–something only an astute observer can notice.

Which is why the artist himself should be his own harshest critic. And unless one creates artwork to please fellow practitioners (which I think is rather marturbatory), one seeks to communicate one’s own ideas to his fellow FANS…people who like the stuff the artist is also a FAN of.

Fellow comic artists can encourage you but the bottomline is that one is sharing his stories with an audience of FANS. Fans of manga. Fans of mecha. Fans of infernokrusher. Fans of New Weird. My audience.

I don’t do my craft to please a fellow artist who does Spandex Supeheroes because that person has a different set of aesthetics about story and character and all the technical aspects of illustrating for that particular theme and genre.

Also fans aren’t fickle. Unless you target a mass market audience. I’m a die-hard fan of obscure genres because they breed cult followings. The long tail!! The numbers may be small but they’ll be there to buy your product as long as you are able to communicate your ideas to them well.

Critique and advice are of course welcome from fellow practitioners but in the end if their opinions don’t mean squat to you as a fan and artist with your own unique set of aesthetics then the advice isn’t really helpful.

One has to be a fan first of the same stuff you like so that you are both on the same page.

@AJ…dude you’re absolutely right, even a lousy film can make impressive numbers given an outstanding marketing campaign. Also learned the hard way that without marketing we got zip. Next time we put something out, we’ll do some dirty work first so that fans of the stuff we like will be aware of what’s available.
Auggie on April 17th, 2010 8:57 pm

JM,

Di ba ganoon din sa mga NOBEL PRIZE Scientists, pag nag pa-publish sila ng mga Scientific Research and breakthroughs? sa mga PEER REVIEWED Journals? malupit ang peer review, pero garantisado naman ang trabaho mo…..
Jose Mari Lee on April 18th, 2010 2:34 am

Yes, Auggie. Exactly.

And Michael:

I think you’re expounding on another thing, while I was trying to discuss another, and it is about who is more qualified to raise one’s artistic work: the fans or the artist’s colleagues. For one, which is the main thing, is that – an artist is supposed to be the PACESETTER. You show your brilliance to the fans, not to your colleague artists. But, the fans are there to follow you, NOT you to follow the fans. Like what I’ve said before, if an artist follows the fans and not the other way around, then… you might end up doing MASSACRE FILMS. It will turn you into a hack.

You, as an artist, should set high standards, should create brilliant work, and even do something ahead of your time, like what ROD SERLING & ISAAC ASIMOV did (just to name two brilliant popular authors). No, you don’t have to be as high brow and as deep as DOSTOYEVSKY, ORWELL, or KAFKA. But, let me tell you, that all these brilliant authors never followed their fans. They LEAD their fans to follow them. And that’s what a true artist should do: be as individual as he can, be as unique as he can, and the most important in any artistic endeavor: have TECHNIQUE. You have to have this last element to be able to become an effective artist, whether you’re an actor, an illustrator, writer, or whatever. Without technique, might as well be a MAGTATAHO and make a lot of kids happy and at the same time making them healthy. Taho is a very healthy snack, and I loooove it. It is clean (because it won’t form if not clean), and it is delicious. In fact, if I didn’t become a writer, I’m pretty sure I would have been a magtataho.
:)
Michael on April 18th, 2010 2:24 pm

Hahahahahahahaha!

The analogy is totally out of whack.

Doing comics is waaaay different from scientific research and Nobel Prizes.

Critique of craft, acceptance (or rejection)by fans, and success of individual artistic skillsets are all SUBJECTIVE actions as opposed to the objective scrutiny of scientific peers.

That’s why I maintain that one has to have the same set of aesthetic values to even be able to understand each other’s work.

You have to be fans first of the same stuff.

All comic book artists work to PLEASE the fans first, dude. Or even for fine art…artists work to please the patrons who pay them.

I think the happiest moment in painter Paul Cezanne’s life was when he saw his works being framed during an exhibit and finding out that people actually liked his work and were willing to pay huge sums for the captured scenarios he made for his own enjoyment.

I still stand by everything I said in my earlier posts on this thread.

The MARKET will always be the best FEEDBACK system for anyone who does comic books on a commercial level. Not critiques.

Unless you share the same set of aesthetics or poetics, even advice from peers can only work for you if you AGREE that it applies to the kind of work you make, same as advice from writer peers.

Because in the end, the artist himself is the best judge of the quality of one’s own work.

Next are the fans with whom he will be sharing his visual stories–they either embrace his work because it touches their souls or they reject it because it means nothing to them.

All artists focus on a particular market ( which is my definition of an artist”following the fans” ). Some may choose to do massacre movies. There is a niche available for everyone. Everything is long tail.

As for technique, there are basic elements of craft that anyone, either writer or artist has to master when beginning his craft like Gerry says.

Still, practice makes perfect. Not peer advice. It’s still everything you do on your own that will help you improve.

There are books about craft from all sorts of artists that can help anyone improve technique. All one needs to do is find which one APPLIES to one’s own design sensibilities.
Jose Mari Lee on April 18th, 2010 4:27 pm

Ha-ha-ha!

That really cracked you up, huh? I guess we ended up talking about the Medical field after we visited:

http://www.viraldeath.com (go there now!) It’s better than any B-Horror Movie you’ll ever see.

I like people who can laugh easily. I guess it is a gift. Oh, Thanks for all the input, Mike. We have absorbed all your sobering ideas and I wish I had the same frame of mind as yours when I started making komiks in Atlas Publishing when I was 14.

You really equipped yourself with all the right frame of mind and ideas to face corporate realities when you work for real someday. Better still, DON’T work for MARVEL or DC, just work for yourself. The corporate setting will definitely disappoint you. Them bastards. Like Paul Anka’s MY WAY, they’ll eat you up and spit you out. I think you’re doing just fine by working for yourself. It’s really ideal to be young, bohemian, with your art gallery and sushi bars around you.

Yes, keep honing your talent and I wish you reach that pedestal where your work becomes worthy in the eyes of whoever would look at it, especially the fans whose attention span is getting shorter and shorter these days. I’m glad you know that to become a true practicing artist, one has to do it constantly and prove it and not just talk about it like some aspiring artists do. You’re doing a good job, no worries.

But you know what, I thought you’re only 18 or 19 years old. Are you really 39 (my GAWD, I have just been reminded of my own age. I’m already 49)! You don’t look that old (that’s a bonus, he-he). And even your thinking is really not that old. Very impressive, I must say.

You really inspired me. It is indeed true, like what Maurice Maeterlink once said, that: “When the mind is young, the body is young.”

And Auggie, take note of this, you old square, cranky uragon. You better start having fun, fun, fun. It’s not too late yet to live the life of a bohemian there in Naga City. Just give me the go signal and I’m going to start the Auggie Surtida fan club. He-he.

Wo-hoooo!

Hey Mike, you can go back now to your drawing board. You won the debate hands down. Hope you don’t hate us for bugging you? I know, we’re 10 years older, but let’s all be friends. After all, we’re all artists. Meanwhile, I guess I had to go to Chinatown to buy TAHO. All artists and writers should eat taho everyday. It’ll keep your body and finances in ship shape condition. He-he.

And Manong Gerry, thanks for putting up with us. And don’t eat taho. You’re allergic to it. :)
Auggie on April 18th, 2010 6:06 pm

According to MUSICIAN JOHN CAGE, ART needs no AUDIENCES, he do as he pleases and F–k the fans!
Same as my idol MILES DAVIS, he doesn’t give a F–ck about the fans, that’s why when he performs onstage, Nakatalikod siya…ganoon din si Pablo Picasso, mi contempt siya sa fans. You are not a true artist kung pleasing the fans lang ang motibo mo….As for legit criticism,it is not out of whack. It’s your peers who know better… HOW SAD INDEED!
Auggie on April 18th, 2010 6:26 pm

JM,

Yeah, Fun,fun,fun,till your daddy takes the T-Bird away….But this Mike is something else. I thought all the while he was 16 or 17. Obviously, he discovered the fountain of youth, Forever young, no worries, no stress, no bills to be paid. What can I say? I ENVY THIS GUY!
Michael on April 19th, 2010 7:12 am

Dudes, I do work for real. In a corporate gig doing marketing R&D for a media company. 9 to 5 job.

My day job pays all the bills and puts food on the table. And I love my job because I get to write for a living too. And it allows me to slowly but surely save up for the resources needed to put up a small press comic book publishing studio…my only vice.

I have a secret life as head of a small-press studio in partnership with my Funny Komiks buddy Sho (Dragon Force) and we’re working really hard on projects we enjoy doing. Doing comics is already a part of our souls, so we do it like the madmen that we are, because we just have a ton of stories and characters and worlds to SHARE with kids!!

We’re doing it because we enjoy the gig, and because we have crazier ideas about making the gig profitable in an era where publishing per se is going down the drain all over the globe.

I’ve already resigned myself that I can’t do corporate professional comics because I’m too slow an artist (1 page every 2 and a half-days) and my storytelling (lay-out) skills are too manga and old school Homage (every analog of Wetworks that I can think of, and sequential pin-ups mostly).

Nevertheless, as Hannibal of Carthage says: “We will find a way or we will make one.”

So we do self-publishing! But we wouldn’t be doing the gig if we didn’t learn all the hard lessons that freelancing has taught us.

In the end, creative control of your own work is what is most valuable to us as artists and not just having our name headlining a comic book of some corporate publisher. Because this way one will be solely responsible for the success or failure of one’s own venture.]

Well, Auggie…can you say the same for comic books and comic book artists for that matter—that they don’t need an audience?

Thought so. Your analogies are quite out of whack, dude.

If your attitude towards art is F–K the fans, then everyone can clearly see why you are where you, are and why comic book artists who value their readers and audience are where they are.

Our art and craft is comic books. Our art and craft revolves around visual stories that we want to SHARE with an audience that hungers for unusual stories. If we please each other,(artist and audience), we get incredible rewards for the exchange of stories.

We hone our craft by constant practice and by being honest with our own abilities to deliver the ideas we want to convey to our comic book audience. We MUST enjoy our craft or else we won’t find the magic to share with our readers and we won’t satisfy our own egos if the work bogs down into a chore.

If we need to consult peers to improve our work, those peers must share our own craft aesthetics: for example–someone who thinks six-shooters and horses are BASIC to someone’s ability to draw will never see eye-to-eye with someone who thinks that a “Nail-Gun Liefeld blaster” and variable-geometry mecha are basic to one’s skillset…
Jose Mari Lee on April 19th, 2010 11:58 am

Auggie & Mike:

I admire both of you because of your PASSION. I like artists with passion because it is a strong driving force that would push them to do great things.

Here, even if we’re not part of the GAMBINO FAMILY, let’s have a group hug. But, just to make sure, let’s look around first before we do. Someone might be holding a telephone cable to wrap around our necks. We sure don’t want to end up in:

http://www.viradeath.com

He-he.
Jose Mari Lee on April 19th, 2010 12:00 pm

Ooops. My keyboarding is so fucked up. I meant:

http://www.viraldeath.com

The ultimate horror of horrors. Don’t dilly-dally anymore. Go there now.

(this message has nothing to do with Spamming) ;)
Auggie on April 19th, 2010 2:19 pm

MIke,

So you really have a regular a 9 to 5 honest gig.Why didn’t you say so in the first place? I thought again for a while that a 39 year old dude, does nothing but have fun,fun,fun, with utter disregard to responsibilities to your loved ones.
So we can be friends after all, right dude? I like your passion in pursuing what makes you happy & fulfilled. I like to meet you in the future and swap some shop talk, six-shooters and nail gun blasters? i’m also interested in your small printing press.I would like to operate one someday, maybe I could use some pointers from you?
Michael on April 19th, 2010 3:24 pm

Well if Gerry brings up the topic of how to do guerilla publishing on a shoestring budget…

I think Gilbert is the best resource for small press publishing because he was guest speaker of a forum called Alt Pub…a seminar on alternative publishing…

Peace to you all!!
Gerry Alanguilan on April 19th, 2010 4:55 pm

Hey Michael…. I already wrote about it here:
http://alanguilan.com/sanpablo/2006/04/making-mini-comics.html
AJ on April 20th, 2010 1:07 pm

Awww come on guys, making peace already? I was just starting to enjoy the flame war!

So in a vain attempt to reignite the fires of mutual disgust, I’d have to say I agree more with the notion that an artist’s (comic book creators included) reason for being shouldn’t be the fans in much the same way as it shouldn’t be for the approval of same-aesthetic-standards peers nor (god forbid) for the sake of putting food on the proverbial table.

Yes, I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t say I’m secretly hoping that there’s someone out there actually willing to worship my sorry sordid tales of repressed anger and adolescent fantasies all expressed in incomprehensible ink stains of sequential hackery, enough to surrender all their life-savings in the service of the all-so-cliched notion of ‘art for art’s sake’.

But I’d also be lying if I said I don’t mind having my creative output under the mercy of fans, peers, editors or money. And yes, since FANS (your mother/girlfriend/wife not included) are the ones who shell out MONEY to appreciate your work (unless you prefer giving away your work for free, in which case I applaud you), then I’d like to use those terms interchangeably under the same argument.

Artistically, the best example I can think of is Jim Lee’s art style, which has evolved very little since his X-Men days, all because that specific style has been proven to sell over 8 million copies. Sure he may have experimented a little during his Image days up to the period he had to take a break to spend time with his family but has since reverted back to that same fan-engineered style by the time he switch over to DC.

Moebius, by contrast, has been heavily criticized and simultaneously lost and gained fans each time he schizophrenically switched styles, sometimes even within the same comic. Nevertheless, no one will argue that he is still THE Moebius.

Story-wise, I don’t think I need to mention the countless retcons we’ve been barraged with in the whole history of the superhero genre. Characters infinitely dying and resurrecting, switching affiliations, switching sexual orientations, cloned and/or multiple incarnations of the same character, unmasked and re-masked, crippled and healed, married/divorced and/or annulled by infernal intervention, senseless team-ups/guest appearances, etc, etc, all (maybe not ALL, but MOSTLY) for the sake of fans.

Locally and without insight into the creator’s intentions (to which I stand to be corrected, if ever), there’s Nardong Tae and Alamat ng Panget, both produced with total disregard for even the most basic audience-reeling standards, yet by those same standards it can be argued that both titles can be categorically classified as ‘fan-favorites’. Regardless, it can also be argued that under a different market, period, region and/or cultural mind-scape, these titles wouldn’t even be ideal to wipe your @$$ with.

And this is where my overly-expounded sentiment boils down to: in the business of not giving a $#it for approval, fans, peers or otherwise, it’s all about throwing $#it on the wall and seeing which one sticks.
Jose Mari Lee on April 21st, 2010 7:32 am

AJ:

Basically, what you said is the reality.

True, your audience is the receiver of your “masterpiece”, and definitely, the judge and the jury, who will say the final word: “Yea or nay”.

The danger of relying too much on what the fan wants is this: they can be terribly unpredictable. They may go ga-ga for now over the hype of BLAIR WITCH PROJECT, but after mulling over how silly and how nonsecal the piece is, then they all cringe, saying:”eeew. How can I be so gullible to fall prey on that silly movie, which should have been entitled “THE BLAIR WITCH SHIT” because instead of listening to some lyrical, philosophical point of view, what we got was: “FUCK, SHIT, SONAFABITCH” dialogues from beginning to end.

Whereas, if an artist creates something unique, something that has been given a good twist in the presentation, then, that sort of thingy might even end up a true winner than something commonplace and thought to be a “slam dunk” and “in the bag” fan-wise outcome.

But, I am no longer debating with Michael here. I am now expressing my own ideas without directing it to our new friend Mike. What I’m trying to say is: it is for the creator of the comic book to decide what exactly he wants to do.

Personally, I would rather create without thinking what the fan wants, but I would definitely asses what is acceptable to most readers. A creator can do something totally new and different; but if the piece he is creating is obviously ALIENATING to the readers, then we can call it for sure as “economic suicide”.

There are only a handful of themes available in this world. These themes were written and rewritten again and again, since time immemorial. What makes them different is by giving them new treatment, new perspective, new persuasion.

Let’s just read Shakespeare and his works. After all these years, they are still very applicable to mankind. Besides, almost every phrase we use in English was practically lifted from his works – even the current expressions have originated from Bill.

Well, we all have freewill. Let’s use it, like Bill.
:)
Auggie on April 21st, 2010 9:47 am

JM,

I can cite two concrete examples about the fans fickleness:

1. BOB DYLAN- In the early 60s, Bob was already considered an enfant’ terrible, among the denizens of Greenwich Village,NY, and was hyping him as the POET LAUREATE OF YOUNG AMERICA, with an acoustic guitar. But when he turned ELECTRIC, with the hit song LIKE A ROLLING STONE, many fans were infuriated accusing him of being a SELL-OUT. Of course, Bobby didn’t give a s–t, he just went on and on and on….

2. MILES DAVIS-Miles Davis was considered a genius among his peers. Particularly with one of the biggest Jazz album of all time, KIND OF BLUE, he couldnt do no wrong. It was an acoustic album. But then Miles was a true artist and always pushing the FRONTIERS OF JAZZ. Then came his albums IN A SILENT WAY, and BITCHES BREW. The fans were infuriated because Miles went ELECTRIC. Of course badass Miles couldn’t care less, and went on, and on and on. In the process, creating the “School of Mile” with outstanding graduates like a who is who in Jazz. It includes among others: HERBIE HANCOCK, CHICK CORREA, TONY WILLIAMS, JOHN McLAUGHLIN, AIRTO MORIERA, FLORA PURIM, JOE ZAWINFUL,WAYNE SHORTER, etcetc…MORAL OF THE STORY..It’s important for Artists to march to to your own drummer….
AJ on April 21st, 2010 12:54 pm

I kinda like The Blairwitch Project up to this day. It’s funny because I kinda considered that as something that falls under ‘something unique, something that has been given a good twist in the presentation’, with its viral marketing, indie documentary style—all unheard of at the time of its release.

As for the cussing, I thought that was forgivable. After all, I’d exhaust my whole vocabulary of profanities if I was being scared shitless in the middle of nowhere.
Michael on April 21st, 2010 1:54 pm

It’s three against one….oh boy.

One advocates making noise with the sound of one hand clapping.

Another says that the people who share the same love for your ideas, stories and characters (the FANS)should be ignored…because they are SUPPOSEDLY unreliable and fickle.

And a third uses music as an analogy for artistic integrity…

Already expressed counterpoint versus the first 2.

So let’s make some music instead…

In the early 90s some UK musicians made a rather obscure and unusual flavor of alternative music that touched the lives of countless souls around the world. But due to volatile nature of popular music at that time, they were unable to reach critical mass and the artists disbanded and opted for other ventures…but SHOEGAZER as we know it didn’t die out…instead it was the FANS who embraced the music…forming their own bands to play eternal variations of immortal music, and now this underground (still obscure) genre is mushrooming slowly yet consistently everywhere in the world, and even has become a self-sustaining musical movement because of the legions of FANS who kept the fire alive even after the gods walked away from their creation…

Same with Drum & Bass. DJs in warehouse parties experimented with dance tracks by looping “Amen” breakbeats (a James Brown funk breakbeat called the ‘amen’ loop) and creating a very engaging and hypnotic, repeating beat sequence. What made this format the immortal monster that it is now across the U.S. and Europe? The FANS of course. Artists are fans first of a medium, then they make it their own by rabidly evolving the medium and sharing their creation with more FANS.

It’s the FANS that make one’s CREATION immortal through the years. Dylan and Davis may be GREAT and EXALTED artists among their fellow musicians, but their works are mere relics of their era, with their listeners dwindling every decade, rather than a continuing FORCE that reaches out to people of all ages, particularly and especially Kids…like SHOEGAZER and Drum & Bass, the only two immortal formats to emerge from the UK from the past 20 years and still going on strong!

It’s the same analogy with comics. What exactly “sticks to the wall?” A comic book that strikes a chord with the reading FANS!

Like Sandman. Or Suicide Squad (first run). Especially Suicide Squad…readers writing letters telling you how much they HATE what you are doing to the characters and plot of the book…every month. Like clockwork. I’d love to have a FANBASE exactly like the readership of the old Suicide Squad…readers who tell you they don’t like what you do BUT they still buy your book every month so they can tell you again that they don’t like what you do…that would be LOVE!
Michael on April 21st, 2010 2:00 pm

Blair Witch = scary and evil monster.

scary and evil monster = COOL!

B-Movie = COOL!
Robby Villabona on April 21st, 2010 3:19 pm

I think Michael has a tendency to read people’s opinions and see other people as either black or white:

1. If you say comic book creation is not all FUN, then he thinks you’re having NO FUN at all (there is a middle ground, isn’t there?)

2. If you took a ‘practical’ path in life, then you are ‘incarcerated’ by your work. (funny — my work is actually both enjoyable and practical).

3. If you say don’t put too much faith in your fans, then you’re advocating not putting ANY faith in your fans (again, isn’t there a middle ground?).

I didn’t get that impression at all from what JM wrote.

JM was advocating balance: write your vision, but be mindful of your target audience (it’s entirely possible your target audience aren’t your most rabid fans).

Just the mere act of telling a story already shows you care in some form about your audience, even if you don’t know who they are. If you didn’t care about your audience, you’d be keeping your stories to yourself.

The truth is, fans ARE fickle. They can love you once and hate you when you change (like Auggie’s examples). They can love you once and grow tired of you when you DON’T change (e.g. Michael Jackson, Stan Lee, Dolphy). Or they can ignore you now and love you after you die (Gaugin, Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Jane Austen).

As for what AJ wrote, yes it is indeed confusing. What exactly does “stick to the wall” mean, if not acceptance by your audience?
Michael on April 21st, 2010 5:04 pm

One and two are Rob’s “interpretation” of my mindset, and I leave it up to the readers to digest all of my posts and judge for themselves whether this is valid or if my arguments hold true based on their own merit…hehehe.

As for number 3: It is JM who INSISTS not to rely on the fans to give one props for doing a good job…and rely on fellow practitioners instead because according to his own words…

one is a practitioner first before he becomes a fan (I advocate the opposite view)…

and anyone telling a story SHOULD have a very CLEAR idea who his readers are dude.

The example of the Suicide Squad fandom is just one of the most unique situations where fans love to bitch about the comic but they still bought it on a regular basis (66 issues)…cool!

JM’s advocacy is to rely on peers as a measure for gauging one’s own proficiency at technique…

and I say this will only work if your peers are also FANS of the stuff you do, or share the same aesthetics as you do…

JM even expresses completely conflicting statements: he’ll create without regard for fans BUT assess what is acceptable to readers?? Is this what you call “advocating a balance.”

I don’t think fans are fickle. They just have expectations and standards as the artist does if they are FANS of the same particular art, story or music that the artist creates.

My personal target audience veers towards cult followings as opposed to the pop-culture, mass market examples given by Auggie and JM and Rob.

From a marketing standpoint even, since this is where our viewpoints diverge most pointedly…JM and Auggie, even Rob just SEE the short tail of the spectrum…while I look at the long tail of the spectrum.
Michael on April 21st, 2010 5:36 pm

Just an aside…

Everyone has their own personal life experiences coloring the way they see and view things.

Auggie and JM are merely presenting their own personal views…based on their own life experiences and the values that they hold true as human beings and artists themselves…

same for everybody else who’s commented on this thread…

Same with me too.

We all enjoy the arts, music, and especially comics and this discussion just shows how diverse viewpoints are about the craft we all love…

We may not agree with what the other person says but that’s OK too. As long as Mr. Flor doesn’t intrude and express his colorful sentiments then we can have as lively a discussion as we choose to do so…hahahaha.
Auggie on April 21st, 2010 6:25 pm

Mike,

It has nothing to do with you now so cool it. I’m just describing the nature of fans. We can still discuss the printing process, six-shooters and nail-gun blasters right?
Jose Mari Lee on April 22nd, 2010 1:48 am

Mike:

I also worked in advertising, and even here in north America, we really know for sure that FANS ARE FICKLE MINDED. Hence, when you are promoting a product, there are possibilities that even if it is already a brand with easy recall, it can still fail when it comes to the minds of the consumers/fans. There is just no guarantee that every product you launched, even after bench-marking it, that it will be a big success. Audience, and consumers alike, can change their taste at a drop of a hat. The dictum of “if it ain’t broke why fix it” could actually backfire if you become complacent.

Complacency.

This is a word that’s almost synonymous to the old RP komiks industry. Complacency on the part of our old komiks practitioners caused a lot of harm to the Filipino komiks industry. Why? Because they were so happy and contented that the fans bought the komiks and read their work even if they were rehashed material from previous smash hit serials. They didn’t challenge the imagination of the publishers and the readers. Just because the publishing house was raking in the big bucks, they stuck to whatever is being gorged by the fans. In the end, what happened? Need I say more?

We all know what happened.

You see, if the old komiks practitioners continued to challenge themselves and the publishers to create well-thought of serials, I’m pretty sure the Filipino komiks industry would have been as popular as the MANGA by now. The whole world would have been enjoying KOMIKS as MANGA’s competition in the world market. The Filipinos have no problem writing in English, so it would have been a big bonus already. Even the Japanese people are now trying to learn English because they know that by not knowing this second most spoken language in the world – is a handicap.

So, instead, what exactly had happened to the local RP komiks? Well, we can call it: “the blunder that dare not speak its name”.

This is a very good example how virulent it can be if we don’t try to “up the ante” just because it is a “sure bull” thing already. That is not being pro-active. It is, in fact, a step backward. Doing what is “safe” and “comfortable” and “familiar” will not work in the long run. Short term maybe. But in the end… we’ll end up ruing one day, just like what happened to the the many tragic characters of the old komiks industry in the Philippines, wondering what went wrong for not seeing the tell-tale signs, still disbelieving how such a huge industry would fall like the Roman empire.

History is there for us to learn from. Let’s learn from the past glory and failures of people who lived and died on this planet. Let’s open our eyes to all possibilities. Let’s not be sitting around in a cozy room sipping our ice wine while the world roars outside. Let’s learn from the past mistakes of the old RP komiks industry.

Mind you, Mikee, I’m no longer debating here. Just sharing my view now. So we’re no longer adversaries this time, we’re just friends who are brainstorming.

And AJ, mi amigo:

He-he. congrats for liking BLAIR WITCH WHATEVER. Sorry, guy. But for me, it’s one of the worst films ever made. It’s manipulative, it’s insulting to one’s cerebral capabilities, and very few people even recall which one it was by now.

Let me just say this then: MACBETH, HAMLET, ROMEO AND JULIET, MERCHANT OF VENICE, to mention a few, would still be enjoyed by mankind a century from now, probably, even centuries from now – like what we do now, and the world before us several centuries ago. BLAIRWITCH would have been forgotten in oblivion by then, because only after a few years people already ask: “BLAIRWITCH… what?”

Oh, we’re no longer debating, by the way. We’re just exchanging our thoughts.

There is a fact about swimming that I would like to share with you, guys: In swimming, women float better than men. Why? Women have more fat in their bodies, men have more muscle. FAT FLOATS, MUSCLE SINKS.

Just like in art.

The UNIQUE floats; the HACKNEYED sinks.
Meanwhile, the true, the good, and the beautiful – will always triumph.
Flor on April 22nd, 2010 2:47 am

Kunwari kuno ang usapan ay tungkol sa FUN sa pagguhit. Sinabi kung SERYOSOHIN ang pag-drawing. Ngayon ay binago na pala ang usapan at ginawa ng SERIOUS FUN. Meron NAGPAPALUSOT.

Michael, ibaling mo na lang ang FUN mo sa ibang linya na may ibubuga ka dahil hanggan ngayon sa edad mo na 39 anyos ang abilidad mo sa pagguhit ay kapareho lang sa 10 anyos. Pero kung seryosohin mo ang pag-drawing ay baka ang abilidad mo ay maging kagaya ng 11 anyos na bata. Hopeless ka pa rin.

Gayahin mo ang anak ko, walang ibubuga sa pagguhit, ibinaling ang FUN niya sa ibang linya para maging SERYOSONG abugado siya.

Saka na lang kita patulan uli kung ginagamit mo na ang ULO mo sa halip na ang iyong PUWET sa PANGANGATUWIRAN.
AJ on April 22nd, 2010 5:19 am

@Mike, I can clap with one hand. I’ll let you hear what it sounds like next time we meet.

I’m not really trying to initiate a gank here (I was joking). Like Auggie says, it’s not about you anymore. I’m sure you’re not the only one reading this blog who share the same sentiments so I’m just airing out mine in turn.

What I meant by seeing which shit sticks to the wall is that one shouldn’t make comics in order to gain fans. You make comics primarily to tell ‘visual stories’. The desire to gain fans depends on the person, but should never be the main reason to do comics.

Besides, the statement “artists work to please the patrons who pay them.” sounds more like the job description of an entirely different profession. If you catch my drift.

Treading the middle ground as pointed out by Robby, sure I can probably make comics to please fans. But what if the fans themselves are clamoring for a direction I don’t necessarily agree with? A fair [re]solution for this is probably a synthesis of both our sentiments, which is to make comics to please myself, in an art style I’m comfortable with using a story that makes sense to me. THEN I’ll share it it with people that has the same aesthetics as I have, hoping to acquire some fans in the process. Shit stuck on wall.

I seriously don’t mind the haters. Critics, fans, Mr. Flor—it doesn’t matter. I think I’d prefer the hate than false compliments for the sake of courtesy or fear of ‘hurting your feelings’ or for fear of sending the hate back.

And oh, JM thanks for the viraldeath link. That will definitely prove useful as reference when drawing gore although I can’t help but feel guilt that it has to be at the expense of somebody.
Flor on April 22nd, 2010 6:54 am

Ang sinasabi ng ilan sa mga BAGITO na SERIOUS FUN ay HINDI FUN ito dahil ang totoo ay NATATARANTA pa ang mga utak nila dahil hindi pa nila kabisado ang mga sekreto ng pagguhit. Para bagang hikers sila sa kagubatan pero nawala ang kanilang HIKING FUN dahil naligaw o NATARANTA sila sa daan.

At ang sinumang nagsasalita tungkol sa SERIOUS FUN kuno sa pagguhit ay dapat NAIINTENDIHAN talaga niya ang ibig sabihin nito o NARANASAN talaga niya ito para PANIWALAAN siya ng iba. Ang labas kasi kung walang kaalam-alam siya dito ay parang kagaya siya ng nagkukunwento sa giyera na sundalo na hindi naman nakaranas ng tunay na digmaan.

Ako at ang tatlong kabarkada ko nuon na mga dibuhista sa komiks ay naranasan talaga ang TUNAY na SERIOUS FUN sa pagguhit na may halo pa na KABUANGAN dahil kami lang apat ang alam ko nuon na nagguguhit ng komiks sa loob ng beerhouse habang umiinom ng beer na kasabay rin na nililigawan pa ang mga waitresses duon. IYAN ANG TUNAY NA SERIOUS FUN NA MAY HALO PANG KABUANGAN!

Kaya ba ng sinuman sa inyo o nagawa ng isa man lang sa inyo ang ginawa namin na TUNAY NA SERIOUS FUN NA MAY HALONG KABUANGAN PA nuon?
Jose Mari Lee on April 22nd, 2010 8:35 am

Mike:

Your statement on #75 is inaccurate. I don’t know where you got it from.

Go back to #54 and you’ll read this:

For me, however, colleagues are truly qualified to assess what’s good and what’s bad. It is the best way to go when asking for a feedback about my work. Why? Because they themselves became a practitioner from being a fan first. Thus, they are more well-equipped to critique a colleague’s work. It’s like the academy awards. Your peers are the one’s selecting the winners, not just every Tom, Dick and Harry hanging out on Hollywood Boulevard and Vine Street.
:)

Because they themselves became a practitioner from being a fan first.

Isn’t this clear enough?
:)
Auggie on April 22nd, 2010 9:37 am

Mike,

If you are a serious true-blue SUPERHERO fan, you gotta give PROPS to Flor. He was the best, illustrator of SPIDERMAN, bar none in my opinion. He did it for ten long years and was syndicated in more than 100 newspapers around the globe.

Flor,
Wala na talagang tatalo sa iyo kung SUPERFUN lang ang hanap. Sino nga ang makakagawa ng illustrations sa beer house, mi GRO, walang sketch, ng lapis, at kinakaliwa mo pa yata? pwedeng pang Ripleys’ iyan di ba LOL!
Auggie on April 22nd, 2010 9:44 am

Aj,

In my opinion Blairwitch was pure un-adulterated BS!
Sayang ang pera ko doon…
Michael on April 22nd, 2010 10:10 am

@AJ

When I said it was three against one, I meant that three people were advocating a view point that FANS (or the reading audience) are the least priority whenever crafting comics while there was just one dude (ME) advocating that one’s audience should be one’s primary inspiration and feedback mechanism for quality work as a visual storyteller.

Three fairly similar mindsets versus a counterpoint. Nothing personal beyond that.

Also, fine artists depend on commissions to survive…in the old days and even today. Either museums or art patrons become FANS of a particular painter then pay for his work and collections….although I do get the alternative viewpoint about bordering on whoring one’s work or in simpler terms, selling out.

I’m not saying that one must make comics to gain fans…what I’m saying is that anyone who is a STORYTELLER performs his craft with an audience in mind…your synthesis example spells it out perfectly…the audience begins with one’s own self then expands to other readers (FANS of the same material)…it is the SHARING of the story with an audience that makes the CRAFT unique in itself.

That’s why I vehemently insist that feedback from FANS (people who share the same aesthetics and poetics) of the same material is the best measure for the success of the telling of the story…

@JM

I stand corrected. Your parsing is different so I misunderstood your POV. Sorry, my mistake.

Also…there’s a difference between an advertising mindset and a marketing mindset.

Advertising caters to baser instincts and tries to trick someone into liking or buying something one really does not need…hence, you depend on an audience being fickle enough to bite into a campaign…if you can seduce him with the ad.

Marketing treats an audience or a market with a more reverent approach. If an audience exists for a particular product…a marketer will bend over backwards to find and nurture a relationship with that audience and even develop ways for that audience to grow and expand…

I’m sharing my own insight about how I view FANS and why I wear the hat of a marketing professional as opposed to that of an advertising professional.

Maybe this insight may help readers SEE why I have the mindset I advocate.
Michael on April 22nd, 2010 10:54 am

Grumbling dinosaurs.

Not the cool, savage reptiles or vintage cars.

But Flor.

A perfect example of how one’s own sordid experience becomes a debilitating crutch rather than a wealth of useful knowledge to share with others.

If I had a son, nephew, or friend who had drawing as a hobby, and enjoyed it as much as I do, I would seriously support and encourage him to be a master of the craft, until he himself chooses whether to make it his life’s work.

But dismissing him as ‘walang ibubuga’ reveals what kind of character the dinosaur has. Fairly primitive.

Being dismissive of other people’s viewpoints because they are younger and have different life experiences and values is another crude talent of the grumbling dinosaur…

If a 10-year old or 11-year old can do character design or even mechanical design like I do, then that kid would be one versatile illustrator compared to some dinosaur who got stuck with a strip cartoon in a disposable format for 10 years…sorry, but I prefer Chris Bachalo, Brett Booth, J.Scott Campbell, Rob Liefeld and Todd McFarlane’s superb work on Spider-Man as the perfect iterations of that character.

And I’m a MechaFAG more than a super-hero fan…don’t think the dinosaur can even draw a proper toaster…what a shame.

10-year old and 11-year old kids who do comics RULE!! They’re onto something utterly good and fantastic. FUN for the rest of their lives too!

Yep. We don’t mind being the hopeless ones if the pinnacle of achievement in the comic book world is “Flor the Dinosaur.”
Robby Villabona on April 22nd, 2010 11:17 am

Hi, Mike,

I think the source of your confusion about what JM said is because you’re equating target audience with fans.

Fans are your established following. The target audience can be a wider population than your fans. If you’re starting out, or are relatively unknown, then obviously you have little to no fans, but can have a wide target audience in mind. For example, Quentin Tarantino wasn’t thinking of fans when he made RESERVOIR DOGS. He didn’t have any. But I’m sure the audience he had in mind was not the same audience who watches HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL.

So in that sense, it’s easy to see how you can ignore what your fans want but still be mindful of who your audience is.

I have to agree with Floro, though. You have these very established opinions about writing and how one should view work, but it wasn’t forged in any substantial experience. You’re largely doing all of it as a hobby, but are applying your experience in your hobby on how one should approach a profession. It’s like someone who plays NBA 2K9 on a game console giving tips to Kobe Bryant.

Which leads me to a question that’s been bugging me for a while — why not make comics full-time? If creating/publishing your own comics were so much FUN, why not gain as much experience as you can from it by doing it all the time?
Robby Villabona on April 22nd, 2010 11:32 am

Just saw your post (#85) right after I posted mine (#86)… I think I was right. You seem to use the terms fans and audience interchangably. I think most of us make a differentiation. Hence, we end up talking past each other.
Auggie on April 22nd, 2010 12:50 pm

Rob,

“NBA 2K9 Game console player givings tips to Kobe Bryant how to be a Monster Playa” LOL! I think that’s a very apt analogy. Sharp analogy!

Mike,

I think what Flor is saying is let me quote HARRY CALLAHAN, SF Cop: ” Man has Gotta know his limitations” and I see nothing wrong in that. We gotta know our limitations. Ive known my limitations several decades ago pa.
Michael on April 22nd, 2010 1:09 pm

Yes, I agree. My definition of FANS and AUDIENCE are the same and interchangeable…any smart reader can review the context where one equals the other in my arguments and they can very well decide if there should be a distinction or not…like what you espouse…

The statement: “So in that sense, it’s easy to see how you can ignore what your fans want but still be mindful of who your audience is.” doesn’t make sense to me because a STORYTELLER’s audience are fans of the kind of material he shares with them. Our semiotics are different.

Again like I mentioned in my aside…

We do have very distinct life experiences with the craft…

Your contention of viewpoints forged from “substantial work experience” being more valid than viewpoints forged from someone with “less substantial work experience” doesn’t hold water for me nor should it do so for anyone else.

What is substantial from your viewpoint might be trivial to me and other readers and vice versa.

Again, anybody can follow the path, advice and mindset of “Flor the Dinosaur”, who’s done 10 years of Spider-Man strips, syndicated worldwide…(but who can’t draw a proper toaster to save his life)…this person’s “substantial work experience” even makes a believer out of Rob. (So don’t nag the dinosaur about his steroid angels when he belittles your dinosaur women.)

Or kids/artists can just choose to enjoy the craft any way they choose. Make it their life’s work if they choose so and still enjoy it as they please just because they can do so. The craft is a reward in itself and it will reward anyone who finds joy in all the challenges it will throw at them.

Rob, if you think that opinion doesn’t hold water for you, then I guess that’s your right, and you may express every opinion contrary to my advocacy.

I’m just presenting my happy ideas and if anyone else shares the same mindset then let’s have a BLAST doing comics!

Advice is only VALUABLE if one can use it to improve one’s craft. And my advice and viewpoints are very helpful in dealing with challenges because I’ve already said that doing comics isn’t easy and one’s mindset can either make the gig worthwhile or just a chore.

Why not make comics FULL TIME?

Still saving up to have enough resources to take the plunge…and do small press publishing not just for comics but for books too…following in the footsteps of James Owen.

Still learning about the business side of how to do it without losing one’s shirt (small-press publishing/publishing on-demand). Because Funny Komiks and Atlas Komiks lost their shirts doing komiks. If one has to do it full-time then one must be prepared first.

So, in the meanwhile, I do it part time, learning as I go, like all the kids who do their gig for the annual Komikons.
AJ on April 22nd, 2010 1:58 pm

@Robby- Agree with the target market/ fans confusion

@Mike-also to further distill your stance let me quote “one’s audience should be one’s primary inspiration and feedback mechanism for quality work as a visual storyteller.”

With this I’m inclined to agree that the audience/fans would make an ideal feedback mechanism but completely reject the notion that audience/fans should be the primary inspiration.

@Flor- Eh BUANG pala talaga kayo eh! Madilim kaya sa beerhouse! Malaki pa chance na mabasa ng beer o malukot papel mo. Of course masasabi rin na iba na ang definition naming mga BAGITO sa beerhouse.
Michael on April 22nd, 2010 4:48 pm

@ Auggie

About limitations…

Of course there is only so much one can do given one’s God-given talents but one does not have to treat this as a HANDICAP.

Nobody is ‘walang ibubuga’ especially one’s own son.

Encouragement and support can go a long way in nurturing a child’s interest in a craft which he does enjoy very much.

If a parent uses his egotistical world view to discourage his kid from pursuing and enjoying a serious hobby then that says a lot about one’s parenting skills.

His son must have drawn one MEAN, UBER GOTTERDAMERUNG TOASTER!

But if the feedback from the supposed grown-up is ‘wala kang ibubuga’ then that kills all of the child’s dreams right there.

My heart goes out for that kid.
Robby Villabona on April 22nd, 2010 8:26 pm

“any smart reader can review the context where one equals the other in my arguments and they can very well decide if there should be a distinction or not”

In that same sense, any smart reader would have seen the context in how the words “fans” and “most readers” were used in JM’s post #69 (different words, mind you) and would have known the difference, correct?

“this person’s “substantial work experience” even makes a believer out of Rob.”

Mike, you tend to assume too much. Floro will be the first to tell you I’m not one of his biggest fans — at least not of many of his ideas. The reason I don’t “nag” Flor is it’s a waste of time. And THAT’s speaking from EXPERIENCE, not theory. If you don’t know what I mean, then you haven’t seen the two of us go at it at PKMB.

I believe what Flor says about this matter in particular because I see it everytime. I don’t believe most of what you say not so much due to your lack of experience, but more because I don’t see it in real life. And so I wondered from what experience you got your ideas. And then I find out it’s mostly theory. Let’s talk about how utterly fun comic book making is as a PROFESSION when it ceases to be just a HOBBY, which it is now.
Auggie on April 22nd, 2010 9:15 pm

Mike,

Don’t fret about Flor’s kid. In a few semesters SHE will be graduating from LOYOLA MARYMOUNT, in LA with a LAW degree and probably get a job in HOLLYWOOD & VINE. She doesn’t have to do comics. I think she has a more higher ambition. She wants to kick ass.
As for Flor, I think you can’t touch him. The guy has ARRIVED. Professionally, artistically and economically. He is also a renowned WORLD-CLASS ARTIST-ILLUSTRATOR-ANIMATOR. He is looking forward to retirement here in the Philippines with his pension in US dollars. The guy is set for life.
Jose Mari Lee on April 23rd, 2010 2:35 am

Guess what?

All of us arguing and debating here showed our love for the medium of comics and I really find it quite exhilarating to share my view with fellow artists. We are colleagues, and we were exchanging ideas and beliefs and it’s good, because events such as this one doesn’t happen very often. Sometimes the comments would teeter on the mocking side, but with a group of artists expressing their passion for the art, it can be expected.

I hope, everyone who felt somewhat got pinched a little bit would take everything in stride and keep our co-existence in the world of comic books a peaceful one.

• I wish Mike all the success in his comic book projects, and a very bright, lucrative future in his own business.
• I wish AJ to continue whatever he’s doing now that’s related to comics and even if I still disagree with him over BLAIRWITCH…WHAT? He’s a fine young man who’s really intelligent, grounded, and practical.
• To Rob, who possesses the tenacity to fight tooth and nail – and is always a delight to read – may you recover from your TOS and more success in your art and work.
• To my fellow Uragon Auggie – Comics historian, critic, collector, and voracious reader – a new bohemian lifestyle in Naga City :)
• And to my uragon contemporary Supremong Kapre (the pterodactyl artist that’s still soaring high while the other dinos have already died and are now fossilized), more drawing lessons and KABUANGAN for all of us to enjoy.

And of course, to Gerry AANGILAN ehe, Alanguilan pala… huwag mo kaming aangilan sa aming mga kabalbalan dito sa site mo.

He-he.
Gerry Alanguilan on April 23rd, 2010 3:58 am

Hello JM…. I find it as exhilarating as you. :D
Michael on April 23rd, 2010 6:34 am

Thanks for the best wishes and the wrap up JM…

Don’t really mind getting belched by dinosaurs, or regarded as inconsequential by the old guard…

It’s been a blast telling and describing to everyone the color of the rainbow on my side of the fence…(black metallic)

Wouldn’t trade my mindset for Flor the Dinosaur’s.

Toasters are gonna be really HUGE!!
Robby Villabona on April 24th, 2010 8:35 pm

JM,

Thanks for the get-well wishes. I’ve improved enough to be able to go back to swimming without pain. I still have some residual symptoms but apparently that’s to be expected.

Michael,

Baka pag nalaman mo ang kwento ng professional career ko, hindi ka maniwala. I have lived, and am living the life you espouse. I’ve been enjoying a freelance career in art for the last 7.5 years, and lived a colorful career in I.T., having held 3 very different jobs for 15 years before that. I’ve done this while putting to school 7 kids for the last 9 years (yung isa ga-graduate na college). I just don’t believe it to be a formula for everyone. For many, many people, their jobs are not the end-all and be-all of their happiness. What’s more common is for people to pick a job that may not be their ideal because they cannot afford to gamble with their children’s futures. That’s a source of fulfillment and happiness in itself.
Flor on April 25th, 2010 3:31 am

JM,

nakakatuwa at angkop yata itong sinabi mo,

“And to my uragon contemporary Supremong Kapre (the pterodactyl artist that’s still soaring high while the other dinos have already died and are now fossilized), more drawing lessons and KABUANGAN for all of us to enjoy.”

Auggie,

katatapos lang ng anak ko. Dalawa pala ang BAR EXAMS sa US. At kapapasa rin lang sa unang exam ng anak ko na MPRE na ang score niya ay 120. Ang passing score sa lahat ng US states ay 70, pero maliban sa California na ang passing ay 80. Nagre-review na ang anak ko ngayon sa pangalawang BAR exam. Magiging abogado ito sa edad na 23 lang na ang concentration ay corporate laws. Ang sinumang walang ibubuga sa komiks at magaling sa ibang linya ay dapat pumunta siya duon.

MGA BUANG LANG ANG GUSTONG MAGING MGA KOMIKS ARTISTS NA MGA BAGITO AT MGA WALANG IBUBUGA KUNG KAYA NILANG MAGING MGA ABUGADO.

Michael & AJ,

dapat talaga na paghahatawin kayong dalawa ng DOS-POR-DOS sa KAPATALAN ng mga utak ninyo para tumino kayo. Angkop ang sinabi sa inyong dalawa ni Rob na hindi yata ninyo naintendihan ang ibig sabihin. Para malinawan kayong dalawa ay ito ang brutal na ehemplo,

KAYONG DALAWA AY PARANG MGA BULATE LANG SA LUPA AT IPINIPILIT NINYO NA TURUAN ANG LAWIN KUNG PAANO LUMIPAD.

Ikaw, Michael, gagamit ka rin lang ng ehemplo ay mali-mali pa. At ikaw, AJ, halata na hindi ka pa yata nakakapasok sa beerhouse. Nuon ang beerhouse ay bukas mula umaga hanggan hating-gabi, at ang iba naman ay mula tanghali hanggang hating-gabi. Ang nightclub ay panggabi lang. Ang sinasabi ko ay BEERHOUSE pero ang ipinipilit mo ay parang NIGHTCLUB, tuloy ginagawa mong BUANG ang isip mo at may pagka-BUANG pa ang katuwiran mo.

Maraming mga matatandang dibuhista sa atin na mga BATIKAN SA PAGGUHIT nuon pero karamihan sa kanila ay UMATRAS ang mga abilidad ngayon. Kayong dalawa, Michael & AJ, ay mga BAGITO pa, nagsisimula pa lang kayo ay PAATRAS na ang mga abilidad ninyo, at lalo pa siguro kung tumanda na kayo. Mas lalong mabilis pa ang PAATRAS na pagsulong ng mga abilidad ninyo dahil NAGDUNONG-DUNONGAN kayo na wala naman kayong sapat na mga KAALAMAN sa pagguhit.
Michael on April 25th, 2010 2:59 pm

@Rob

Man you are the bomb. Putting 7 kids to school and still doing art and comics? Despite our differences of opinion, I guess your experience does count for something. Knock yourself out man and enjoy the ride!

@Dinosaur Flor

Wurms are the BOMB.

A hawk is just 1/1 flying.

Wurms are 7/7 trample and GG when they resolve.

No need to fly when the lawin is just a chump blocker.

Wurms RULE!!
AJ on April 25th, 2010 4:05 pm

@Flor: sabi ko nga ibang beerhouse na ang dinatnan naming mga BAGITO sa beerhouse noong Jurassic era.

Sinasabi ko lang na malaking KABUANGAN talaga ang magdrowing sa madilim/basa/maingay/walang maayos na mesa/ o kaya’t lasing, Sige na, ganun na kayo kagaling. Pag-retire niyo dito dadalhin ko kayo sa kung anumang depinisiyon niyo ng beerhouse/bar/nightclub/videokehan/all-night carinderia—sagot niyo shempre, MAYAMAN ka naman eh.
Auggie on April 26th, 2010 10:08 am

Flor,

Congratulations sa pagtatapos ng anak mo sa abugasiya! Kayang kaya niya iyang hinayupak na BAR na iyan, huwag kang mag-alala. Eh ngayong tapos na ang anak mo, mi panahon ka ng magbakasyon dito? kailan? Kailan ka huling umuwi sa Sorsogon? Tuloy na rin yung libro mo? Nagyayaya ang isa rito sa beerhouse, umiinom ka pa ba?
Auggie on April 26th, 2010 10:23 am

Rob,

Congratulations also goes to you for putting those kids to school. Mi Napa-graduate ka na pala.
Didn’t know there is an unofficial Rob Villabona scholarship programme. They are actually good investment. When you are old and gray and you reminisce about the past, these things that you are doing will put a smile in your face.
Robby Villabona on April 26th, 2010 12:53 pm

Michael,

I don’t do comics. What I do is commercial storyboarding and sometimes commercial illustration.

There was a time I wanted to do comics, but that’s long passed. I suppose I could work on trying to get a Marvel/DC gig, but honestly I prefer drawing commercials than superheroes. I get to draw in various styles appropriate to the campaign and you don’t have to sit for 12 hours a day.

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